I've only read a few D/s lifestyle books and out of the ones I've read only A Man a Jersey and a Tight End by AM Riley was enjoyable, perhaps because it dealt with three couples rather than just one. A lot of people have recommended the Dr Fell stories by Syd McGinley, but I just don't fancy reading them. In fact, I'm reading a Syd McGinley story now in the TQ anthology Hard For the Money, which whilst it didn't start as a D/s story it's slowly turning into one - hence prompting me to write this post.
The thing is, I'm not sure why I don't like these types of stories. I like BDSM stories and have no problem reading about D/s characters when they are performing a 'scene' or having sex, so why is it that when the D/s aspect moves out of the bedroom, or playroom or dungeon, then I start getting uncomfortable?
Partly, I think my discomfort stems from the fact that I am a woman, and therefore bound to that shared history of subjugation by men. Throughout time women have been forced into a submissive role in marriages and relationships, and it's a bitter pill to swallow. Reading about men who get their sexual kicks from being downtrodden by another man, with the knowledge that with the utterance of a single 'safe' word, that they can leave that life, is a bit of a kick in the teeth for all those women who don't get to have a safe word.
Another part that makes me a bit uncomfortable is that the submissives in these stories are often helpless, unable to live on their own without their 'daddies' or 'papa-bears'. This child-like way of showing young men isn't really my thing at all. I like my men to be strong and independent, not weak and dependent on others. No matter how much these stories may stress the power that a submissive has over the dominant partner, the balance of power is always ultimately with the Dom, or that's how I see it, even if it isn't wholly true.
Finally, I think that the fact that I am a fairly strong minded person contributes to the fact that these books don't work for me. I can see the appeal in letting go for a short time, to allow yourself to be dominated in the bedroom and to have someone else dictate your sexual pleasure, but I can't see the appeal of allowing someone to dictate your entire life. I feel scornful towards the submissives in these books and want them to rebel, to break away from what I see as an unnatural way of being in a relationship.
There may be some of you out there who have experience of living like this, who will think that I have judged you unfairly. I'm not judging, good for you if you have a D/s lifestyle relationship, whatever floats your boat is what I say. I freely admit that one reason why I don't like these types of books is that I just don't understand why anyone would want to live their life that way because it's not in my nature to want to live like that myself.
So whilst I read and enjoy BDSM books, on the whole I avoid those which deal with D/s 24/7. What about the rest of you, do you read and enjoy D/s lifestyle m/m books - why or why not?
Interesting post, Jen. I used to avoid BDSM books, because BDSM didn't appeal to me personally. I eventually began reading some, though, and have subsequently found many that I really enjoyed. I'm like you-- being a strong minded person, I can't quite wrap my head around why someone would enjoy being a submissive 24/7. But I've come to find fascinating BDSM books that really develop both the dom and sub characters, ones where I feel I can get into the characters heads a bit, and begin to kinda/ sorta see how it could appeal to someone even though I personally wouldn't enjoy it. Books like The deviations series by Chris Owen and Jodi Payne, Soft Focus by Reno Macleod and Jaye Valentine, Rough Canvas by Joey Hill, and Bound and Determined by Jane Davitt and Alexa Snow.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't get it either. I was like you, first kind of reading between my fingers. Now I can appreciate sexual D/s, in the bedroom but not really out. And the whole lifestyle thing I don't get at all. And I think that's why I don't enjoy it because I don't get it.
ReplyDeleteI can related to maybe being tied up and ravished or even spanked (although that's really not my thing) but to defer every decision in my life to another person? Umm. No. And don't even get me started on the whole degradation thing, making people eat off the floor, denying them food, clothes, etc.
I remember reading a short once (I think it was a continuation of a story from Torquere) and the sub was afraid he was going to be punished because the hot water heater broke and the Dom agreed not to punish him. WTF? You wouldn't treat an animal like that why another adult/human? I just didn't get it. So when I read stuff like that it turns me off even more because I guess I see it as abusive. People say "but the sub wants it and likes it". So. People like things that aren't good for them, doesn't mean you have to give it to them.
Maybe I have an overprotective gene. LOL I just don't want to see people treated badly and unfairly and often I feel it is that. But that's how I and I know others look at it differently.
Just noticed a thread on Good Reads about BDSM and m/m romance. Some good comments in there.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/273068-bdsm-and-mm-romance?page=1
Hi Richelle
ReplyDeleteI have Bound and Determined and Rough Canvas on my TBR pile so I shall dig them out, especially of they are going to give me a realistic view of how D/s relationship dynamics.
Thanks for the link. I've seen some of the comments on that thread and found it very interesting.
Tam
ReplyDeleteThe degradation thing gets to me as well. I just don't understand why anyone would want to be made to feel like crap - although obviously some people do. Kinky stuff in the bedroom, yeah, I totally get that, the rest just seems like bullying and mind control.
Reading about men who get their sexual kicks from being downtrodden by another man, with the knowledge that with the utterance of a single 'safe' word, that they can leave that life, is a bit of a kick in the teeth for all those women who don't get to have a safe word.
ReplyDeleteHaving been a gay man in the military can I point out that not in all occasions can someone utter a "safe word" and simply leave an oppressive role they have even voluntarily taken on. Not at least without paying a price for doing something like that.
So I guess if I was trying to help someone understand from a "bottoms" role perspective on what I was getting out of such a Leather lifestyle or what I derived from living in a relationship with a "Top" which had evolved to a significant portion of my life.
I would have to say finding aspects in the Leather (Gay BDSM) culture like brotherhood and real respect that became unexpectedly part of that relationship that I had not ever experienced in other the parts of the gay community.
I got something out of it.
That's frankly hard to explain to you especially if you see such a relationship as abusive or codependent or based on some mental weakness but I have to continue to say it was there and it did change my perspective on "roles" we all live everyday and such as the one I had in the military and how I could find "strength in service".
I came to see my contribution and service as much "valid" as someone who was a leader. Sounds simple but it is hard to relate for most people if you are constantly told only "leaders" or Tops in the lingo are of value or deserve respect.
So there you go. I am also not going to say the BDSM stories you have chosen here reflects these things because most of it out there I have read is written as pure erotica so no, I have to agree that the BDSM Fiction may not make sense in real life. It may not have been meant to.
The BDSM relationships real people are involved with are quite different.
Hi TP
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughtful response. I agree that the sort of books I am talking about here probably do make no resemblance to what goes on in a true RL D/s lifestyle relationship, which is probably why I find these books difficult to relate to or understand. The points you mention here about brotherhood and mutual support and encouragement haven't been part of the D/s books I've read so far which have mostly concentrated on a pair of men to the exclusion of other characters.
I think the only book I've read where I got a real sense of community with the BDSM scene has been The Elegant Corpse by AM Riley, but that wasn't a book where the heroes had a lifestyle D/s arrangement but only one which happened at specific agreed times.
Most don't the key is do they show social aspects of such a relationship. Do you see the bottom deriving any respect for being with the Top from their acquaintances?
ReplyDeleteI have stated that before even in some reviews of the really "good" BDSM Romances I have read in eBooks that they rely heavily on the old Straight Romance deal that any benefit to the person is isolated and found internally that strength with the couple. Like an inside understanding that only two people can know.
That was not my experience. It was only part of the story and one aspect out of many. So yes, there is not a lot out there really reflective of the whole experience.
That's why I keep pointing people at the old BDSM Gay Erotica like Mr. Benson or Leather Blues. That do this venture into this type of explanation of brotherhood and respect in a community setting as well but they are also far more hardcore and not for the faint of heart. They are also the books that people point to again and again to explain their own involvement in Leather from what they read.
Maybe someday someone will decide to write on such things in a Gay BDSM Romance.
Wonderful post, Jen.
ReplyDeleteI enjoy reading BDSM including the 24/7 lifestyle stories. I'm not too much into some of the more hardcore aspects and it's not a lifestyle I would personally involve myself in but I find it fascinating to read.
Jen - I think you're right on about relating to the subjugation aspect, and being uncomfortable about it. That's why the 24/7 stuff hasn't ever appealed to me, either.
ReplyDeleteI just finished reading In the Heat of the Moment by Kim Dare, and it actually dealt with the perception of subs as "lesser", with the story being about a guy who won't admit that he's a submissive because of how he thinks others will perceive him. The top in the story works to show the sub how wrong that perception is.
Hi TP
ReplyDeleteThe fact that books like Mr Benson are hardcore means that I'm not likely to read them. I admit I'm a bit of a wuss about these things :)
Hi Lily
ReplyDeleteWhich D/s lifestyle books have you read? Would you recommend any to me where I wouldn't feel as I have done in the past?
Hi Chris
ReplyDeleteThat Kim Dare book sounds good. I've read another of her stories with a BDSM theme and enjoyed it, so I will have to check that one out as well.
Jen, a lot of the books I'd recommend nichem already mentioned. I haven't read the Kim Dare book that Chris told you about yet but another one of her books that I liked was actually a free Xmas story called Time to Remember.
ReplyDeleteIt's just a quick peak into a D/s couples life but I really liked it. Another one I liked is A Strong Hand. It's not a true 24/7 D/s story but again I enjoyed it quite a bit.
Hi Jen, another thoughtful post. I am rather fond of bdsm stories, but would probably shy aware from the hard core ones that Teddy mentions. Most if not all of Kim Dare's m/m books have a bdsm aspect. They are mostly of a gentle nature, bdsm-lite as it were.
ReplyDeleteI can't remember if you're an m/m exclusive reader or not. If not, Joey Hill's Natural Law is an excellent book, with a female dom/male sub, a look into their heads, a bit about the community, and a murder mystery, too.
Richelle mentioned the Deviations series. I'm on my second read-through with those. The dialogue can be a little stilted, and the ending of the 4th book is a little circumspect, but by and large I think they're terrific books.
I just finished Precious Jade, by Fyn Alexander. It's Victorian-era, with a self-professed nancy boy narrator who ends up with a rather mysterious master. It's way over the top as Jade is extremely dramatic, but I loved it for that.
There's always Sean Michael's Hammer series and Velvet Glove series. They are typical Sean Michael, though, so if you don't like his/her other stuff you won't go for those either.
Others to consider: Jamie Craigs' Calendar Boys: October and On the Ragged Edge of the World, plus the Master of Obsidian series (but that gets into m/m/f and let's not go down that road but the first book is cool). You Can Leave Your Hat On, by Lena Matthews.
p.s. that is quite the tasty cookie you've given us!
ReplyDeleteVery interesting post, Jen.
ReplyDeleteI admit I was also very hesitant about BDSM until I read Joey W Hill. Her work opened up my eyes as to what the lifestyle actually meant in terms of the deep need both Dom and sub feel to live their roles and the dynamics of the relationship between the two. She also explores how the relationship might work in RL.
I think, and this is given my very little knowledge because I'm not actually involved in BDSM myself, the thing to be aware of when it comes to the 24hr lifestyle is that, like BDSM itself, it can take varied forms. For eg, there is a difference between a 24hr D/s relationship and a 24hr Master/slave relationship, which is the one that I think you might have mixed feelings about.
My understanding is that the latter is the more hard core of the two with both Master and slave needing the - what may seem to us - extreme subjugation and control that goes along with the roles.
I agree that it can make for uncomfortable reading. As always, though, a good author can make such themes convincing if not perhaps provide some understanding.
Great post, Jen. :)
I think I read too many BDSM books that are not much more than crap, IMO. This gave me a rather strong aversion for the genre, lite-BDSM stuff excluded. I hate abuse and like Tam said, sometimes that's what the portrait of a D/s 24/7 relationship in erotica looks like. To me, of course. But then sometimes I'm willing to chance it and I read a book that I surpringly like, or even love, because I think it's thoughtful, rich of psychological aspects, moving, knowing. That's when I realize that my problem lies in the BDSM books that don't want to be more than erotica. It's like looking at those old fake western buildings, you see a façade but there's nothing behind it - and that doesn't do anything for me.
ReplyDeleteGreat post and discussion.
ReplyDeleteBDSM is not something I can read in a het romance if the woman is the submissive as it just does not appeal.
However, Joel Hill's book Natural Law is immensely appealing and I highly recommend it as the dynamics of the relationship were beautifully done and its a book I've re read several times. The end does get a little overwrought, but I ignored this as the rest of it is so cool.
I think that what appeals to me in BDSM is for me it is not all about subjugation, but maybe more about the power to let go and trust. I think parts of Bound and Determined nailed it. It was more about the dynamics of the two mens relationship and the strength that they both gained. The sense of belonging and respect, done well it makes for magic reading.
Hey Jenre...
ReplyDeleteI am about a mid way sort of BDSM sort of person - I am not the hard core type..
That said I have read Leather Blues on a recommendation and it is really a must - it made me look at the whole scene from a different angle and definitely made me aware of what I like and what I didn't like...
I did/do like the Hammer series myself and of course the Elegant Corpse.. other suggestions have already been noted...
Great post .... I have only read the Lynne feature in the Anthology so far.. was about as expected...
E.H>
Very interesting post Jen.
ReplyDeleteI've only just started reading BDSM and within those, the 24/7 lifestyle books, so I'm been scribbling down book titles. The first I ever read was Sean Michael's Bent...I found it fascinating. I also have Joey Hill's Rough Canvas on my TBR list - I've heard some amazing things about that.
The books that deal with degradation and/or humiliation I can't read - I accept that such scenarios are what some people want to experience or read, but they aren't for me. I guess it's like Kris said, it's a matter of degrees, and finding the level that is right for you. I'm still working that out :)
I know just how Sarah feels about the woman as sub. I've tried to read Joey Hill's Beloved Vampire, and just cannot get into it. But I loved the first two Vampire Queen books, where the man is the sub to the female domme.
ReplyDeleteHi Lily
ReplyDeleteI have read A Strong Hand and quite enjoyed it, although it wasn't without flaws. The cover is very striking!
Thanks for the freebie rec, I'll go and check that one out.
Hi Wren
ReplyDeleteI haven't read any of the Deviations series because they struck me as being a little PWP. Perhaps I'm judging them unfairly. The PWP thing is why I've given up on Sean Michael's longer books - although I'm still have to read the shorts. I read one Velvet Glove story and had to drag my way through the last third.
Thanks for the other recs. I don't read m/f much these days but the rest sound good.
Yes Mr Cookie is quite lovely. If you click on the flikr link there are lots of other BDSM photos some of which made me wince!
Actually have realised that the link doesn't work. Not sure why but that's a bit of a shame.
ReplyDeleteHi Kris
ReplyDeleteYou are probably right about the D/s and then Master/Slave relationship. I suppose that I just never really thought about the difference and just lumped it all together.
I really must read Rough Canvas. It's been on my TBR pile for ages and keeps getting overtaken by more urgent reads.
The one reason for picking up Teddy's recommendations is to read about what it is really like. I do think that the books we get to read are the fluffed up ones.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the more real ones make more sense.
I wouldn't put the Deviations books in the PWP category. There are definite, fleshed-out plots. And while there is a lot of sex, I'd have to say that most of it drives the story. And is seriously hot. The main characters have backstory issues to deal with, which makes them 3-dimensional. I'd recommend reading the first one at least, to see what you think!
ReplyDeleteHi Sara
ReplyDeleteI think that a lot of BDSM books are basically just books where the author plays with being tied up/pain play because it's kinky. There aren't many books out there that really do give a true idea of what it's like to live that life. Perhaps that is why I've been put off by them in the past.
Sarah
ReplyDeleteI get the idea of allowing someone total control over you for a short time and can see how that might be liberating, but to have your whole life ruled by another is something my mind rebels against.
EH: Hmmm, maybe I should read Leather Blues then if it's going to give me a different perspective on the genre.
ReplyDeleteHi Orannia
ReplyDeleteDegradation doesn't do a thing for me either and I usually find myself turned off a character who allows themselves to be used in that way, even if it's something they want or even need in their life.
I can't read female-submissive stuff, because of that long history of outside pressure that you mention. It just makes me too angry. But the more I've read on the subject of BDSM, the more I'm realizing that a healthy relationship does rely on the sub being a very strong person too. They have to be doing this because they want to - because they're getting something out of it.
ReplyDeleteHearing what Teddy says, I'm wondering if it's a bit like learning karate; you are in a relationship of mutual respect with your Sensei, and it's actually a matter of personal pride to say "how high, Sensei?" when he says "jump."
It only works if you respect him and you know that he respects you. But in those conditions, it really does work.
On a side note, has anyone seen the anime of Sensitive Pornograph? I know Tam has cos she passed the link onto me. The second story in that is about a lifestyle sub who is kept bound and naked. I felt a bit of a mix of fascination, horror and amusement as I watched that.
ReplyDeleteIngrid: Fluffed up is probably a good description. I suppose this is because the focus is on love and romance as well as the need for sexual dominance. It must be hard to balance the interplay between the characters and make it romantic enough to satisfy the market.
ReplyDeleteWren: Thanks for clarifying that. I like Chris Owen's stuff so I shall have a go at reading at least the first book as you suggest. At least that way I can say to have tried it and I know the Deviations series is very popular.
ReplyDeleteHi Alex
ReplyDeleteThat's a good point that you make about the sub needing to be a strong character. Many of the stories I've read about D/s lifestyles have subs who are not strong - instead they come across as naughty, petulant children who do anything to wind up the Dom in order to get punished and yet fall apart when separated by the Dom for any length of time. This doesn't seem like a healthy way to live to me.
I saw the Sensitive Pornograph vid. I'm pretty sure I have Kris to blame for that, or at least her blog *g*
ReplyDeleteI didn't consider the situation as a lifestyle one - at least the ending implied that the sub had taken more than a consensual beating...
Wren: I think the idea was that the sub had enough and wanted out of the relationship but the Dom didn't take kindly to that idea so beat him up. Obviously they hadn't agreed a safe word ;).
ReplyDeleteObviously!
ReplyDeleteSafe, sane, consensual it wasn't!
Interesting thoughts! I've also had reservations about reading BDSM, though I've only encountered it in my f/m reading. One book by Maya Banks, Sweet Persuasion, I think, really struck me as excellent. It was a lifestyle d/s, with a submissive woman, but she totally wanted it that way. She chose it, reveled in it.
ReplyDeleteI agree that women's history as "the weaker sex" interferes with my enjoyment of this kind of material. And I'm kind of a control freak, LOL. But--I've also always felt uncomfortable with the assertion that BDSM should stay in the bedroom. I just don't connect with that. My sexual self is part of my nonsexual self. You know what I mean? There are overlapping situations. When does an affectionate kiss become sexual, for example?
I don't want to keep my sexuality confined to a certain time or space. So, maybe, for me, the lifestyle BDSM romance works better. Because I'm not sure that I understand where the line is drawn, or why people choose to roleplay, rather than be their true selves, in and out of the bedroom.
I just read Jeff Erno's guest post on James Buchanan's blog: http://www.james-buchanan.com/blog/?p=464
ReplyDeleteHe actually addresses some of these questions.
Hi Jill
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit the opposite. I can see how the D/s relationship works in the bedroom but find it harder to understand when it spills out into every day life.
Wren: Thanks for the link :).
ReplyDelete"What about the rest of you, do you read and enjoy D/s lifestyle m/m books - why or why not?"
ReplyDeleteLike everything else, it depends on the book. "Mr. Benson," which is the classic gay M/s novel, I practically threw against the wall when I first read it. I've come to respect the author, John Preston, because I very much liked some of his other writings, but I still intensely dislike that particular novel.
I share your dislike of reading about submissives who are "helpless, unable to live on their own without their 'daddies' or 'papa-bears'." So does my leatherboy. :) I think the problem that often occurs in literature is that particular character types become written about, to the exclusion of other character types. Thus you get a whole run of rough-cop stories, while the many, many gentle cops who exist in real life never get written about.
Another problem (which you pointed out yourself) is that D/s stories are almost always erotic stories. That tends to sexualize 24/7 D/s to a much greater degree than would necessarily occur in real life.
I began writing contemporary D/s stories after having written stories about historical hierarchies for many years; to me, it was a seamless transition to go from writing about a liegeman who pledges his service to his lord to writing about a leatherboy pledging himself to his sir. However, I do have more difficulty writing about m/f hierarchies, for the reasons you mention.
I agree with TeddyPig that the brotherhood aspect of leather is much, much stronger in gay leather literature. Though you probably wouldn't like it because it's hardcore (I'm a wuss about such things too; I had to skip the SM scenes), I'll recommend to others here david stein's Carried Away: An S/M Romance (it's actually an M/s romance with heavy doses of SM). Though david stein isn't the best stylist, I liked his novel because the characters deliberately decide to break away from pornographic cliches. Incidentally, david stein is the originator of the term "safe, sane, and consensual" and has been in the leather community for over three decades; his depth of experience in the community is clear from his novel.
I think you'd like the second book of Syd McGinley's Dr. Fell series a lot - it has a strong submissive and also has Syd's own version of a brotherhood. (The first volume is good too, but you have to understand that the dom in it does a lot of growing.) Maculategiraffe's online m/m series The Slave Breakers (a fantasy tale which starts off with involuntary slavery and eventually ends up elsewhere) is another good story - though again, the master in it does a lot of growing. I think that's the sign of good D/s fiction, actually - that the dom doesn't have all the answers and is willing to admit it. And finally, for those of us who like D/s without SM, I'd recommend Parhelion's Verdict, which is posted at my True Tales, my e-zine that is devoted to hierarchical tales, both fictional and real-life.
Hi Dawn
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by :).
It's an interesting point you make about moving from historicals where the balance of power between the different social classes lends itself better to the D/s role. I hadn't really considered that.
Thanks for the recommendations. I'll be sure to check out some of them although I'm not too fond of extreme BDSM.
"the balance of power between the different social classes lends itself better to the D/s role."
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting point; I'll have to think about it. :) What I actually meant was that hierarchy (not D/s) is so pervasive in history that it's difficult to read fantasy or historical fantasy without stumbling across it. I mean, I was reading lord and liegeman stories by the time I was eight - nothing gay about them at all, just love between two people of different ranks. So the idea of love occuring within permanently hierarchical relationships was embedded in my brain long before I began to have gay or heterosexual storylines running through my mind.
"I'm not too fond of extreme BDSM."
That's why I recommended Parhelion and Maculategiraffe. :) (And Dr. Fell too, but it takes longer to encounter the gentler elements in that series.) But of course I don't know where your comfort level lies, and heaven knows that I don't want to add to whatever giant pile of reading matter you have.
Hi Dusk
ReplyDeleteIn terms of BDSM my comfort level is slowly being stretched! There was a time when being tied up and spanked was enough for me, but I'm finding it interesting to read more explicit stuff, especially if the psychology of the characters is explored too. Just reading about someone being whipped doesn't do anything for me, but to get inside the mind of the person being whipped or the man wielding the whip and I find it fascinating.