I'm naming and shaming in this post so be warned.
The other day I was having a short email conversation with (big name drop coming up) Jordan Castillo Price about the formatting of the Pdfs of the Petit Morts stories. She was asking me how the format looked on the Sony reader because she'd had to spend some time faffing about with the format to ensure that it read properly for book readers. In other words so that there were no page numbers or book titles coming up in the middle of the page. I was happy to assure her that the pages looked fine on my Sony, even when I'd had to enlarge the font.
This got me thinking about other publishers and whether they spend time trying to get the formatting of their pdfs right too and I've come to the conclusion that some do and some don't. Basically pdfs are just the A4 pages of a WP document formatted so that you can't make changes to it. This means that when I load up a pdf onto my Sony the print is approximately 4X as small as on a A4 page. Fortunately for me, I have a handy 'enlarge' button on my Sony (oh how I love this button, it makes life so much more easy than my Cybook where I had to mess about going into the settings page of the menu) and so when I load up my tiny font sized pdf, I press the button and 'hey presto!' the font is enlarged to a comfortable size - I'd also like to point out at this stage that my eyesight is very good at short distances, so I don't need the 'super-large' font setting to read my books.
The problem arises when some publishers haven't really given a great deal of thought as to how the pdf will look once the font is enlarged. The publishers that do think about these things have their pdfs set up so that the enlarged lines wrap round and join onto the beginning of the next line. Those publishers who haven't really given much thought to their pdf formatting have the lines wrapped round but then, instead of joining the next line, they stop mid page and the next line starts below. To illustrate my point I'm going to use some lines out of the first book at hand which happens to be a copy of Captain Underpants and the Perilous Plot of Professor Poopypants by Dav Pilkey (much loved and read book by my kids).
This is how to do it right:
Back in his private laboratory, Professor Pippy P. Poopypants was just putting the finishing touches on two wonderful new inventions: the Shrinky Pig 2000, and the Goosy Grow 4000.
Professor Poopypants called for his assistant, Porkbelly Funkyskunk. "Mr Funkyskunk," Pippy yelled, "I am now ready to test my new inventions!"
Porkbelly took notes while the professor aimed his Shrinky Pig 2000 at a hideous pile of rubbish.
"BLLLLLLZZZZRRRRK!"
A powerful beam of energy blasted the garbage heap. Suddenly, the large pile of rubbish shrank to the size of a gumball.
This is how to do it wrong:
Back in his private laboratory, Professor Pippy P. Poopypants was just putting the
finishing touches on two wonderful new inventions: the Shrinky Pig 2000, and the
Goosy Grow 4000.
Professor Poopypants called for his assistant, Porkbelly Funkyskunk. "Mr Funkyskunk," Pippy yelled, "I am now
ready to test my new inventions!"
Porkbelly took notes while the professor aimed his Shrinky Pig 2000 at a hideous pile
of rubbish.
"BLLLLLLZZZZRRRRK!"
A powerful beam of energy blasted the garbage heap. Suddenly, the large pile of
rubbish shrank to the size of a gumball.
See what I mean? It's very difficult to read the print on the second example because the lines are so disjointed, they don't flow correctly. I find it immensely annoying to read books like this and several times I've given up on my Sony and read the book on my lap top because I've found it difficult to concentrate on the book in that format. Surprisingly enough it's the larger pubs like Samhain and some Loose Id books where this happens whereas the smaller pubs like MLR Press and Dreamspinner Press (although DSP is becoming more of a major player these days) who manage to format their pdfs so that they read just fine with an enlarged font. One has to wonder whether some publishers actually give any thought at all to how their product is presented for us ebook reader users.
One final thing that I find completely baffling is that Torquere Press pdf ebooks switch their format randomly throughout the book. They do have correctly formatted pdfs which look nice when the font is enlarged but then, for no apparent reason the file loses its formatting for a few pages and reverts back to tiny print (and I mean tiny, as in need a magnifying glass to read). No amount of pressing the 'enlarge' button seems to change that. Then after a few pages it goes back to the larger font. Why? I've absolutely no idea, but it's very irritating.
I've had a good old moan about this today even though I can't see there being a solution to the problem, unless those publishers who don't give a great deal of thought to their pdf formatting actually start to do so. I don't care about fancy fonts, or decorative curly letters at the beginning of chapters (they don't format too well on the Sony either), or prettying up the text in any way. What I want in my ebook is to be able to read the book comfortably and easily in a font size that is clear. Is that really too much to ask?
ETA: Since writing this I've discovered that Samhain do a special type of Pdf just for the Sony Reader so obviously I've been buying the wrong sort - typical!
ETA: Since writing this I've discovered that Samhain do a special type of Pdf just for the Sony Reader so obviously I've been buying the wrong sort - typical!









Now that IS annoying, and also very shortsighted. I would have thought a potential good market for ebooks is people who need larger print and would love to just be able to adjust it on their reader and not have to worry "is this book I want going to be published in large print?"
ReplyDeleteIt's an accessability issue. Maybe you should complain direct to the publihsers who are getting it wrong and that might remind them that they aren't making their books fully accessible, so are potentially putting off people who would have spent money with them.
Whew, I'm relieved I got it right. I really fret about it.
ReplyDeleteThere are many different ways to make PDFs. The ones where the line breaks don't reflow are possibly a product of the publisher using a software that's not optimal. Word, maybe? I do my work in Indesign, though I really scoured for ways to ensure headers and footers disappeared and didn't find any.
I believe the reason for that is conversion software varies. There are no standard conversion rules, so you can't ensure your PDFs will convert correctly on all of them.
I'm glad my lines wrapped, that's all I can say!
Hopefully ePub (which is a highly standardized format) will make this all moot in a few years.
Hi JFM
ReplyDeleteI suppose I should contact the publishers - it will probably be more productive than moaning on about it here.
Hi Jordan
ReplyDeleteGold star for you today :).
My Sony reads epub files but I don't buy them in the epub format. This is because I had my fingers burned a bit with the Cybook which reads mobi files. I bought all my books in mobi format for the Cybook and now that I have the Sony I can't read them (except on my lap top). I have Calibre to convert the mobi files but quite a lot of my books are DRM protected and won't convert.
This means that I was worried that if I bought epub files I would be in bigger trouble because I don't have a way of reading them on my laptop so if my Sony goes kaput then I have no possible way of reading the files. So I buy pdfs cos I know that I'll always have a way of reading them should I break my Sony (heaven forbid!).
Perhaps I'm being overly paranoid.
Thanks for the insider info on the pdf conversions. I don't really know much about that so it was interesting to see that there are different ways of converting a document to pdf.
Unfortunately the Petit Morts had no page breaks on my sony sadly. But I could still read them. Well I've only read one so far but yea.
ReplyDeleteAs for the PDF converting its annoying. The same thing happens with me for TQ and I've about given up on them. I convert everything of theirs to epub through calibre first because I know the pdf form won't work - their epub form is no better. It's pdf form with bigger font but still will go back to tiny font randomly.
I've found that converting almost everything to epub helps but I always have problems when buying from JCP books for some odd reason. The formatting goes wonky.
Seriously, thanks for the pat on the back. I can get really detail oriented and spend hours on a detail that no one notices, so it's gratifying for my recent obsession with making page footers go away to actually be noticed and discussed.
ReplyDeleteYour plight about your unreadable mobis is a bummer. I like mobi as a file type because you can put an interactive table of contents on it, and it also carries extra metadata, but I always found the DRM cumbersome and keep it turned off when I'm making my mobis. My opinion is that honest readers don't need DRM and the jerky pirates all know how to crack it.
I think epubs will be more versatile in the long run because they are based on xhtml coding.
Kassa, did you get epub or PDF for your sony? Did you mean you have no chapter breaks?
ReplyDeleteI get all PDFs and convert on calibre, which could be the problem. I always get PDFs from everywhere because if there is a problem, at least I can read on my computer or print it out.
ReplyDeleteCalibre could be the issue here and I don't hold you or anyone responsible for weirdness that happens due to that.
And yes, when I converted to epub, I have no chapter breaks and no paragraph breaks (this is slightly harder to read).
I have the same problem converting PDFs with Calibre. I think there are ways to tweak the Calibre conversion but I haven't figured them out. When my friends give me ebooks, it's always in PDF and I find them very hard to read on my iPod.
ReplyDeleteOkay, that second one would make me berserk. I got a pdf once that stipped all the quotation marks out. I tried it several times. To be honest after awhile I didn't have an issue, my brain learned that an extra space = quotation marks, but that is rare. LOL
ReplyDeleteI read pdf on a netbook which is essentially a computer using adobe reader. So I can only enlarge it as much as the page width without having to scroll across and no way in hell am I doing that. However for some books that can mean 250% and for other books 125% reaches the margin limits. Usually it's enough for me and if I want I could break down and put on my glasses (but then I can't watch TV - aka the Olympics - because my glasses are only for reading and the TV is blurry).
So I guess not having a reader I don't notice those little quirks. But there is no way I could read a 300 page book with all those wacky breaks like your second example. It would really break your flow.
Ha! Word veri: impolito - What pubs are when they make their formatting whack.
Hi Kassa
ReplyDeleteI just can't understand why the TQ formatting does that. I could understand if it wouldn't enlarge at all but to switch back and forth like that is completely baffling.
Jordan: DRM is a real pain in the arse. I've got loads of books which I can't read on my Sony because I can't convert to the correct format :(.
ReplyDeleteHi Tam
ReplyDeleteI've had a few books where the formatting is wonky like your quotation mark problem. Quite a few ebooks I've read have a funny square shape instead of a hyphen and one book had the square shape instead of speech marks. That was really irritating.
You've only got a few more days and then you can go back to reading without having the Olympic distraction :).
The square box in place of dashes issue almost happened in Other People's Weddings. It was a font issue. Luckily I spotted it and corrected it.
ReplyDeleteThe missing quotes was a font issue too. Someone's smart quotes didn't convert right.
If a hunk of text isn't acting right, I usually think MS Word is the culprit. It's so bloated with features that it makes really horrible code with bizarre characters in it. That hunk of text that's not acting right may have originally been something the author and editor were working with or adding comments to, and Word left some code residue in there.
This whole discussion is making me think it would be cleaner to strip all formatting as part of my workflow next time.
I buy .lit and convert it in Calibre to mobi, which my reader does best with. As long as I make sure to transliterate unicode to ascii in the conversion, it all goes well. PDF conversion sucks - it's probably an issue with Calibre having trouble removing the headers and footers.
ReplyDeleteJen, drop me an email and we'll talk a bit about your inaccessible books....
Jordan: MS Word causes all sorts of problems. I seem to remember that Wave's blogger blog once crashed because she used to write her posts in Word and then cut and paste into blogger. All the extra coding overloaded her blog and caused it to crash.
ReplyDeleteHi Chris
ReplyDeletetransliterate unicode to ascii in the conversion
You've completely lost me now!
I will email - it will have to later though cos I'm just about to take youngest daughter to gymnastics :).
Is Chris speaking English? What's happening? Is my brain scrambling the input? LOL
ReplyDeleteLOL! The transliterate bit basically means taking out the stupid things that MSWord leaves in the files it creates and converting them in to the more standard things that everything else reads.
ReplyDeleteBy all means, Jen, contact the publishers who are effing it up. (Not that I have a ton of sympathy, considering I'm still reading e-books on my PC.)
ReplyDelete;-)
I think in this age of Internet and ePub, contacting the publisher directly, particularly if it's a reputable one, is the way to go. You are the customer and you are always right.
ReplyDeleteWell, you're nearly always right, Jenre. I wouldn't want the praise to go to your head. =)
What an excellent post. My eReader is languishing in a drawer somewhere--it just got to be a pain in the ass and yet another piece of electronics for my purse.
These days, when I do read, I read on my macBook.
XX
lb
Purse electronics. Oh yeah. I, um, have in my purse/backpack (love you, Eagle Creek) the following:
ReplyDelete-Netbook (Dell Mini 9, aka Kuroi Neko)
-Ebook reader (Hanlin v3)
-Digital camera (Olympus 1010)
-Non-smart Nokia cellphone
-Palm Tungsten E2 (mostly for playing Mahjohnng and checking my book database so I don't buy dupes when in a non-e bookstore)
-MP3 player (Sandisk Sansa Clip)
Your purse CAN provide a complete workout... ;)
I hear you, Chris. I carry a puny Kate Spade bag (A GIFT) and only put my lip gloss, my shiny silver wallet, and my Palm Pre inside. That's my "mom about town" wear.
ReplyDeleteMy computer bag? Uh. It looks like Wall-e crapped in it. Lots of electronic whatnots make that thing a challenge for airport security.
Hee hee - I think of my backpack purse as a base station. If I go into a store, base station doesn't.
ReplyDeleteAmen to everything you said. I'm one of the annoying readers that contact the publishers all the time... I'm pretty anal about how the data appears on my Sony, so I keep in mind those publishers that don't get it right.
ReplyDeleteI've had the Torquere Press format change on several books and am pretty leery of buying from them. (and their website aggravates me).
JCP is great about making sure the format is good, which I completely appreciate.
For the most part I think the publishers respond well, but it's irritating to have the book format all messed up.
KZ: Jealous, much ;)
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't have moved onto ebooks without a ebook reader. At the time I got my Cybook (nearly 2 and a half years ago) I had this huge dinosaur of a PC which was used by everyone in the family. Spending more than half an hour on it at a time was a luxury so no way would I have been able to sit and read a book on it. A book reader was well worth the extravagance in my opinion.
LB: What do you mean, nearly? I'm always right - well I am when it comes to my marriage anyway :).
ReplyDeleteI should complain but I'm crap at it. I think it's a British thing where I don't want to bother someone so I'll just suffer in silence.
"It's only a flesh wound..."
ReplyDeleteChris: I've got handbag electronic envy now :).
ReplyDeleteMy bag just has my Sony in it. I don't even keep my phone in my bag any more cos I kept losing it in the depths. The rest of the space is filled with all the crap Mums need in case of emergency.
Hi Mariana
ReplyDeleteYou sound like you've had some results from complaining to publishers. perhaps I should just bite the bullet and get over my natural aversion to making a fuss.
The thing that bugs me most about the TQ site is that I can never find the shopping cart button. I love their books though, so I put up with quite a lot of annoyances from them such as the formatting thing and the awkward website.
Chris
ReplyDelete"It's only a flesh wound..."
Yep that's me. I am the stoic hero who never complains whilst bleeding to death on the floor.
Most of what you all are saying is like a foreign language to me. I don't know enough about it. I just know that there is so much variation in pdfs that I buy htmls and then copy & paste into rtf and put that on my SONY eReader. I can fine tune the text size & paragraph spacing in rtf before I put it on the Reader. Even when you get a good pdf format, the enlarge text feature on my Reader doesn't get it quite right. It can go from too small to too big with nothing in between. And when it's a large file, resizing drains the battery. I thought ePub would be the answer but I still have the resizing problem. That's why I was really happy that Dreamspinner started offering htmls.
ReplyDeleteI've had exactly the same problems, Jen. Shits me off no end. I now buy TQ press books in epub so as to avoid the problem. Unfortunately they have only relatively recently started to do this so all their older books are not available in this format.
ReplyDeleteI also have major probs with DSP pdfs especially with the chapter breaks and with the increased font size of the first letter of the chapter. Sure it may look pretty in pdf form, but, dear God, it can be a total mess to read once it's on the Sony, converted or not.
I actually deconstructed a DSP pdf into rtf because the friggin' thing (for a relatively short novel) was about 2 mb bigger than it needed to be. Then I went through to figure out where all the overhead was. Stupid graphics. The Chapter Headings were graphics, instead of Chapter 1, etc. And then at the end of each chapter, there was another "blank" graphic block. I got rid of all that crap and had a book that was about 1/5 the size. I can believe they look horrible when you try to read them any way than the specific way/device for which they were formatted (whatever that may be).
ReplyDeleteI always buy lit and convert it - not that different from buying epub and converting it.
Hi Jackie
ReplyDeleteThat's a lot of messing about to get your ebook to read properly. I don't know if I could be faffed to do that, but points to you for taking the time to do it for yourself.
Mind you if publishers formatted their books properly then you wouldn't have to spend so much time doing it yourself.
Kris: Do the TQ epub books format OK then? I'll have to try buying them in that format from now on.
ReplyDeleteThe chapter titles at DSP are annoying. They either take up a page to themselves or appear suddenly in the middle of a page.
Chris: You can tell by looking at the chapter titles of DSP books on the Sony that they are an image rather than text.
ReplyDeleteI'm reading a DSP book at the moment and although the text formats fine with all the lines following on nicely from one another when you enlarge, the chapter titles are all over the place.
Jen: Yep. In my experience, TQ books in epub don't have any of the probs that the pdf format does.
ReplyDeleteChris: Oh, is that why. I had heaps of trouble with Calibre and the size of the DSP books. I've actually had to stop using Calibre because the DSP books - no matter if I bought them in epub, if I bought them in pdf or if I converted them from pdf to epub in Calibre - kept crashing my system. It's a total poo because I loved Calibre.
@Kris - Hmm. They haven't crashed my computer when I convert them in Calibre (but my computer is new), but if I try to read a gargantuan pdf file like that, my reader goes off into lala land.
ReplyDeleteHeh. My veri word is demon!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you, Jen. I hate poor formatting! I convert .pdf to .prc (mobi) to store them in my smartphone, and in order to have something acceptable I have to fiddle with the html, which is the intermediate passage - a pain in the arse!
ReplyDeleteAnd TQ's pdfs make me twitchy because they're not justified.
BTW Jen, you can read epubs on a laptop with Adobe Digital Editions, which is not perfect, but, well, at least it works.
Jenre,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the thought. I do put a lot of effort into formatting MLR books to look as good as I can (banging my head against ePub and prc at the moment for that fact). Good to know that some do notice the effort.
Kris Jacen (senior editor/formatting director for MLR Press)
Maybe tell the author, too? If the publisher doesn't do anything about it, the author might never know about the problem.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the info.
Hi Jenre,
ReplyDeleteI've had some good responses from publishers. I've also copied the authors when I send the email, just so they know.
The Sony seems to respond well to the epub, so I've been purchasing that almost exclusively.
I like Torquere authors too...so I do go back, it's just painful at times ;)
Jen
ReplyDeleteBeing relatively new to eReaders I don't have any insightful suggestions but I have noticed a world of difference in the formatting. I thought it was because I converted my files from pdf to prc (for the Kindle) since the majority of my books are either in .lit or pdf. I have always read my books on either my laptop or desktop so an eReader is new to me. Good article.
Hi Sara
ReplyDeleteJust the words 'fiddling with the html' fills me with dread. i would mess up and the whole thing would be completely unreadable if I tried to do that :).
Thanks for filling me in about Adobe Digital Editions. I hadn't realised that read epub as well as pdf. I have that on my laptop already so maybe I should think about switching to epub instead of pdf.
Hi Kris J
ReplyDeleteI definitely noticed the effort. In fact it was coming from reading Encore! Encore! where I'd been impressed by the font style and formatting onto reading a book from another publisher where the lines didn't wrap properly which sparked this post.
I thought that if a small pub like MLRP could take the time to get it right then the bigger pubs surely could too.
Hi Jill
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that authors really get much say in what happens to the formatting of their books. I'm not blaming the authors at all for this as the formatting of books is the responsibility of the publisher not the author.
Hi Mariana
ReplyDeleteIt does seem that epub is the way to go. Unfortunately the arcs that I receive are often in pdf format. I think I will have to switch to epub for books that I buy from now on.
Hi Wave
ReplyDeleteConversion does sometimes mess up the settings. I've found this when I've converted from .lit to pdf.
I think I kinda just know the pubs that will givem e problem..
ReplyDeleteI am like Chris as well - I do alot of conversion with Calibre and I mostly read .lit or convert to PDF...
One of my main culprit was The Wild Rose Press - but I will admit they have gottren so much better over the years...
E.H>
TQ has a special Sony pdf format. I got a replacement file last week when I had an epub file with a page error.
ReplyDeleteThe most irritating thing is flipping to the next page and then get only one word
Hi EH
ReplyDeleteI only use Calibre to convert mobi files to epub or pdf - and only those which aren't DRM protected.
Hi Ingrid
ReplyDeleteI hadn't realised that TQ did that. I bought from them the other day and didn't even notice, I just clicked on the pdf option.
Jenre - reading pdf's that have the breaks is annoying but I find that I get used to it after a while. But I'd rather not have it at all.
ReplyDeleteI think contacting the publishers is really the way to go - especially in this age of ereaders - they need to be made aware of the problem. :) Great post.
Chris - I think the Hanlin does better with epubs - how funny. I tried the mobi's but didn't like them as well. Go figure
@Tracy: We're running different versions of the firmware, I think. But I'll have to try an epub and see!
ReplyDeleteHave just started reading eBooks. But no, I don't think wanting read an eBook comfortably and easily in a font size that is clear is to much to ask.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like readers want PDFs to act like anything other than PDFs. PDFs are file types that are not supposed to flow. If I design a magazine and send it to a printer, and his computer is different from mine and my type shifts, my magazine could come out with the last sentence of every article missing because they flowed out of the page frame. PDFs are made so that the file looks exactly the same on every computer, with the same fonts and line breaks on every computer. That's how they're SUPPOSED to be. When PDFs do flow, it's a complex conversion where the text is extracted from a non-flowing format. Every other file format is inherently flowable, and will look better on your device or convert more readily to something less wonky.
ReplyDeleteComplaining about PDFs breaking funny on ebook readers is like trying to wash a car with a potato, and then saying potatoes suck because they're not getting your car clean. Use a sponge! :D
Anyone interested in experimenting with different file formats but doesn't want to waste money trying out different types could download my story Stroke of Midnight from 1romanceebooks for free and see what looks good on their reader.
@Chris - ah, that might be it. Thx. :)
ReplyDeleteI hear what you're saying Jordan and it sounds right. Not that I'd know about PDFs vs other formats but I can buy into the fact that PDFs are basically built for a different use than formats for ereaders.
ReplyDeleteHowever the problem exists in that readers very rarely seem to only read on one format. Some read on ereaders, computers, print outs, and any variation of the three for a single book sometimes. Which means you can't always use the same format for everything you want, whereas PDF is the easiest and most basic format to get. You can then convert that into the necessary ereader format and be ok.
Publishers and authors make this conversion much harder than necessary with big letters at the start of chapters or stylized headers, blank lines as page breaks and bad formatting. Big font or awkward positioning makes readers' lives just that much more frustrating in trying to read the book how they want.
So while I understand that we may want PDFs to act as more than they are, what alternative is there? Buy multiple formats of the same book?
Buy a flowable format that you can convert into other things - that gives you more flexibility.
ReplyDeleteMeaning what exactly Chris? I don't see that as an option at most places but I could be looking for the wrong thing. Help!
ReplyDeleteI tend to buy .lit, because I know I can convert it and have it look good. Really, almost anything OTHER than pdf should convert well with Calibre. Do the test that Jordan suggested with her freebie from 1Romance and see how various conversions work for you...
ReplyDeleteHeh. Veri word = rimical...
Chris: I just want to buy one format that will transfer to everything without having to faff about converting it to different formats for different hardware. I thought Pdf was ideal for that, but from what Jordan has said, maybe my expectations of that format are too high.
ReplyDeleteHi Orannia and Tracy
ReplyDeleteIt looks that my general ignorance of all things technical means that perhaps I just need to change the format I buy from pdf to something a bit more flexible.
Anything other than PDF, ok thank you very much! I shall try that.
ReplyDeleteI think the Calibre chaps suggest that HTML is the best source file, followed by LIT. These can then be converted to whichever output suits you best - for the Sony I tend to use LRF or EPub.
ReplyDeleteHi RachelT
ReplyDeleteThanks for that. I would never think to buy books in lit format as I think of that format only for those who want to read books on a PC or a laptop. However, both you and Chris seem to think it's a good file to buy and then convert so maybe there's something in that.
Jen - It has to do with how easy it is to deDRM .lit if you get stuck having to be something DRMed...
ReplyDeleteI agree, .lit seems to convert really nicely into anything else you may need, plus you can read it directly on a PC with a free program if you ever need to.
ReplyDeleteOr html. You'll always be able to read that in any browser and most word processing programs.