I have a bit of a confession to make:
I like reading dark, edgy romance stories
What does this mean, you may ask? Well just recently I have read books which have included the following:
Non/dub-con
Torture
Slavery
Characters of dubious morality
Violence
Theft
Cold blooded murder
Blood-play
I bet some of you are reading that list now and thinking - oh heck! There's no way I would want to read a book containing those themes/aspects. Well, you know, that's fine by me. I realise that these sorts of themes aren't going to be to everyone's taste. I feel like I ought to point out that I don't read books with these themes all the time. In fact, maybe only 1 book in 30-50 will be a dark and edgy romance. However, just occasionally I want to read a book containing one or more of the themes above and I'm pleased that there are books and authors out there who cater to that need.
What has concerned me recently is that there seems to be a bit of an outcry going on at the moment about m/m romance books with these themes. Despite the fact that the number of books like this are minuscule compared to the number of sweet or non-edgy m/m romantic books published every week, some readers are alarmed that there should be books like this out there and have even stated openly on some romance sites that people who read these sorts of books (ie. me) must have something wrong with them to want to read such themes.
Let's just get something straight here, shall we?
Just because I read books containing non/dub-con does not mean that I want to be raped, or that I have rape fantasies. I don't.
Just because I read books which contain violence does not mean I am a violent person. I'm not. In fact I'm a complete pacifist and avoid confrontation if at all possible.
Just because I read slavery books does not mean that I want to be tied up and degraded. I don't.
Just because I like to read about the psychology behind a man of dubious morals does not mean I want to have a relationship with or marry a man like that. In fact hub is entirely the opposite to that sort of man.
Just because I read dark, edgy romance it doesn't make me somehow sick or evil. In fact I am frequently accused by my fellow m/m romance readers of being 'too nice'.
ETA: I've been, quite rightly, called up on the fact that by saying this I'm implying that if you do have rape fantasies or like to be tied up and degraded that this is somehow a bad thing and not normal. That wasn't my intention and I'm sorry if it's been read that way. If that's your kink well, that's great for you. Who am I to pass judgement on what goes on in the privacy of other people's lives? In fact that's part of my point here, some readers are passing judgement on my private life or my personality based on the types of books I like to read.
I read these books because I am interested in people, in relationships and also the psychology of what happens to a person when they are put under duress. I want to understand what drives a man to behave in a dishonourable fashion, how circumstance can change a person for good or evil and how love can grow and thrive despite oppression, or hatred, or even between those who some people think maybe do not deserve love.
More than that, though, I like to read about the redeeming power of love - not the way that some books depict love as instantly curing all ills, but rather how love can provide the beginnings of an increase of self-worth, and can be the catalyst for change. Some of the authors who write books with difficult or edgy themes can show the power of love in a way that does not demean what the character has experienced, does not show love as a sticking plaster over the bad things that happen, but rather show that love can exist and thrive in the darkest places. It's these books and authors that I like to read.
m/m romance is often seen as the 'ugly step-child' of the romance world. Many m/m authors fight for a place within the mainstream romance canon. It concerns me that within m/m romance there are readers who would openly scorn what some m/m romance authors are doing and insult other readers who like those edgy romances. As a reader there are many things about m/m romance which just don't float my boat. I frequently mention how the incredibly sweet and sugary romances are just not my thing. That doesn't mean that I think that those books should be banned, nor do I think that books like those should not have a place within our small genre. I also find some edgy themes such as extreme BDSM or water-play not to my taste. I just avoid those sorts of books wherever possible and if I accidentally get caught out then, rather than blaming the author or publisher, I just chalk it down to experience and move onto the next book. I know that there are many, many readers who love those books both sweet and not and it gladdens me that they can read and enjoy those types of romance because there's something out there for everyone.
Therefore I ask those readers and authors who condemn me and the authors who write the books I like to read, to show a little tolerance. There's room within our sub-genre for all tastes and just because I read dark, edgy romance does not mean that my taste is any less valid than yours. Live and let live is often my motto and in this case I think it's very appropriate.
I like books like this too O////O
ReplyDeleteKimi-Chan: Yay! It's not just me then :).
ReplyDeleteI'm just about to start writing one that's pretty dark. I hope you'll get to read it one day.
ReplyDeleteSome people in the genre need to start thinking about it in the same way as the romance genre in general, in that it's extremely stratified. Nobody just reads "romance", they read specific sub genres. There's enough m/m romance published now that readers can specialise in what they like to read, at least within the broadest sub genres. There's room for everyone out there.
And fiction has always been a great way to explore dark themes in a safe way. Nothing wrong in that.
Becky: I hope I get to read it too!
ReplyDeleteI think you are right. Perhaps when m/m first started being published t was more amalgamated into the 'erotica' genre (and unfortunately still can be despite the lack of sexual content) but as the genre grows, so it diversifies and readers can pick and choose whichever sub-genre they prefer.
And fiction has always been a great way to explore dark themes in a safe way. Nothing wrong in that.
I totally agree!
I can understand where you're coming from Jen. I don't think there's a problem or an issue with the books with those elements. Sometimes I'm in the mood for those books but a good bit of the time I'm not.
ReplyDeleteI think what concerns me the most is that I never know when I'm going to run into a book like you're describing. Sometimes they're clearly labeled or there's a buzz about a book so you know ahead of time. Other times you simply run across it while reading. Now I understand the whole author outcry about no labels but I respectfully but totally disagree.
If I'm in the mood for violence or non-con or what have you, then bring it on. If I'm NOT in the mood for such and it shows up in a book, it absolutely WILL throw me off the book and change my entire feelings about it. I've come to find out that some authors I just can't read because I don't trust where they go with the book and characters. Other times it's only specific books .. but it's sometimes hard to tell.
I don't have an issue with those elements at all. I think more power to the authors who write them. However they are more of an "acquired" taste you could say and therefore I think readers who are surprised by those elements have a right to moan as well.
I think I agree with Kassa in that labelling could be much clearer. Such as if you buy a book when it's promoted as m/m, and it's actually m/f/m. Or you buy a book that's marketed as a romance and actually it isn't. I think that causes more problems for the genre than it needs to.
ReplyDeleteI like dark stuff - probably my favourite m/m is the Administration series.
My main bugbear is worldbuilding. And I find that sometimes in the slave/non con/dark/alternative history etc., the worldbuilding is sloppy or not as tight as it could be. I admit that is something that I'm not forgiving of.
But I also think that some of the best writing can be found in the dark edgy part of the m/m world.
Oh absolutely, Kassa. I also believe that labelling is vital to books such as these. Readers need to be warned otherwise as you have mentioned it will ruin a book for a reader who doesn't want to read it. I know that some authors don't agree with it, but I do wholeheartedly. I have some authors who I deliberately read because I know I may be taken somewhere that makes me uncomfortable. I like to be challenged and stretched in that way, but that's not going to be the case for all readers and I respect that.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, labelling is a secondary, albeit related, issue here, and one that has been addressed a lot recently on other sites. My concern with this post is more about the way that my reading tastes are villified by readers who often have never read a dark romance. They see the labels, see that the book has these themes and immediately pass judgement on the book, the author and me as a reader. That makes me rather cross and sad.
I don't generally seek out dark themes, but for every one of those you listed where I go "Oh no, I don't like that." I can probably find a book I read that contained it that I loved. LOL So like most themes, if it's well done, I'll read it.
ReplyDeleteI can't say I've ever been blindsided by some of these issues. I've not been reading something believing it to be a nice semi-sweet contemporary when - wham, abducted by white slavers and raped and tortured then rescued. But maybe I'm a bit more cautious about what I choose these days. There is a huge range of books available now, and there probably are more with the darker themes because as more readers discover m/m you are going to get enough people who are attracted to that to make it viable for an author to pursue. That's a good thing. Means there are also more authors pursuing other sub-genres that I like.
I do find I can perhaps tolerate a higher level of violence and crime than some romance readers. And I'm pretty sure it's from my 15 year affair with crime novels. What horrid atrocious serial killer crime have I NOT read described in minute detail? So that kind of thing doesn't really phase me and I actually enjoy the grittier m/m crime dramas that are more descriptive.
There are just a billion books out there and I am so glad there are. I can never imagine telling authors to not write something because I don't like it. I would hate to have the reverse done and I think people have to remember that. Our own personal tastes do not reign supreme and oh how we'd hate to have someone take away what we enjoy.
Lesley: I've only read the first of the Administration series so far. I like the moral ambiguity of both heroes, especially Toreth.
ReplyDeleteI think you are right about the world-building. Sometimes authors are more concerned about shock-tactics than creating a realistic and vivid setting.
some of the best writing can be found in the dark edgy part of the m/m world
Yes, I think that too.
I make no bones about the fact that I prefer reading (and writing) lighter fare most of the time. But that doesn't mean I never read grittier stories, or that I don't think they have a place in m/m romance, or that I think there's anything wrong with the people who prefer reading or writing darker fiction. Heck, some of my favorite stories have some pretty heavy themes, including violence and BDSM.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand the attitude some people seem to have (not just in the m/m genre, of course) that everyone else should conform to your personal tastes. There's plenty of room for everything and everyone who wants to play, IMO.
Tam: I spent a number of years reading horror and murder-mysteries, so maybe that's why I like the darker themes too.
ReplyDeleteThere is a huge range of books available now, and there probably are more with the darker themes because as more readers discover m/m you are going to get enough people who are attracted to that to make it viable for an author to pursue.
Yes and that can only be a good thing. I must be refreshing for those authors who wish to write those themes not to be constrained by what they think used to sell. erotica and the sweeter romance will most likely always be the more popular parts of our genre, but I'm pleased more authors are stepping away from that.
Excellent post, Jen! And Shae's comment really sums things up for me:
ReplyDeleteI don't understand the attitude some people seem to have (not just in the m/m genre, of course) that everyone else should conform to your personal tastes. There's plenty of room for everything and everyone who wants to play, IMO.
Tolerance and respect for differences. I wish there was more of both...
Great Post!
ReplyDeleteI love sweet Romances. Sometimes. And dark Book about Slaves, Killer and so on.
A little Tolerance were great.
Have you ever read "Concubine" by Jill Knowles? Or "Shades of Gray" by Brooke McKinley?
Being the moody reader that I am, I take the sweet with the angst through to the dark and edgy.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, it's usually the darker stories which make me think about the motivations, psychology etc behind the actions of the characters that I tend to like the most. Like Lesley, I also think that some of the best writing in m/m can be found at this end of the spectrum.
There's millions of people who read murder stories, and thriller is one of the most popular genres ever. Should I infer that we are all secretly twisted psychos just waiting to stack old ladies in our basement?
ReplyDelete*insert eyeroll*
I've been finding most outside-the-box fiction in what's come to be called gay literature. It isn't necessarily better than m/m romance, but it's less subject to the strictures imposed by some publishers and by reader expectations. I wouldn't call all of it "dark and edgy," but it does bend or outright violate many genre-fiction norms. Kensington, of all places, has put out some freaking meaty (uh, no pun intended) gay-themed novels.
ReplyDeleteHave you read The Brothers Bishop, Jen? It's an incredible work -- and the kind of book I'm talking about.
"tilicula" ~ Sounds like a rather profane Roman emperor. :)
Hi, I’m glad you posted this. I don’t know if it’s become worse or if it’s just that I’m starting to notice, but I do find it worrisome when any of us pass judgment on the tastes (or the kinks) of others. Other aspects of m/m that suffer from this finger wagging include ‘cheating’ and ‘sluts’ (*shiver*, I hate the very word). I’m sure there are more, but those often jar me.
ReplyDeleteI have written slavefic, and I write the fantasy of D/s (by which I mean, I don’t write about safe-sane-consensual with safewords but about the dark fantasies that those of us who enjoy ‘safe-sane-consensual’ are often role-playing). So yeah, I take notice when my version of ‘fantasy’ gets judged. :)
If I may, I’d go a step further than you on two points. When you write:
“Just because I read books containing non/dub-con does not mean that I want to be raped, or that I have rape fantasies. I don't.”
I hope people keep in mind that many healthy women (and men, I presume) DO have rape fantasies (being raped), and that’s okay.
And when you write:
“Just because I read slavery books does not mean that I want to be tied up and degraded. I don't.”
Please do keep in mind that many healthy men and women DO. And that’s okay, too.
Just, your wording implies that you are not including those extremes in your "I'm-OK"(as if to say, ‘we all agree that those extremes are bad’), which I doubt you meant to do. If I’m mistaken about that, then ouch. I’ll just bow out and state my strong disagreement for the record.
Anyway. Yeah, good post. I hope it is widely read. Thank you Chris for referring to it in the m/m thread about tropes – that thread was bothering me a little, and I'd been wondering about posting something but ugh, I post so rarely I hate to be negative those few times I do. :)
I hope this open-ID thing works -- it gives me hiccups sometimes -- if not, I'm Ocotillo at GR.
You're very welcome, Ocotillo! You made some great points, too. And I hope that this post and the comments get widely read, too.
ReplyDeleteGeesh Jen even Special Forces didn't have all those themes in one book! So I don't think it is written yet.
ReplyDeleteI so do not care about too sweet books. They are beyond boring.
For me those darker themed books have the more interesting characters if written well ( yet another post). The road to the HEA is tougher and there is no need to think up some non existent stumbling block to add something to the story. I like the edgy stuff. Bring it on
I wish blogger had this thing where you could reply to individual comments :(.
ReplyDeleteI'm just popping in to reply to ocotillo-dawn cos I don't have much time. I shall catch up with the rest of you a bit later!
I agree that the finger wagging seems to be getting worse at the moment. I find it rather dispiriting.
If I may, I’d go a step further than you on two points. When you write:
“Just because I read books containing non/dub-con does not mean that I want to be raped, or that I have rape fantasies. I don't.”
I hope people keep in mind that many healthy women (and men, I presume) DO have rape fantasies (being raped), and that’s okay.
And when you write:
“Just because I read slavery books does not mean that I want to be tied up and degraded. I don't.”
Please do keep in mind that many healthy men and women DO. And that’s okay, too.
Oh absolutely and after I had published this post I thought that I should have put a sentence in about the fact that if you DO like that sort of thing it's OK too. However, by that stage the post had been up for a bit so I left it. 'Live and let live' applies to those types of fantasies and sexual kinks too and just because I don't want to do it, doesn't mean I'm passing judgement on people who do.
Actually I'll edit the post and say that, otherwise I'm coming across as rather hypocritical! Thanks for highlighting it because it wasn't my intention to imply that my particular brand of 'normal' is better than anyone else's.
Shae: There's nothing wrong with reading and writing lighter material. I like reading that too. In fact I remember really liking your story Cabin on the Hill.
ReplyDeleteIt's good to be able to mix it up though with some light and some heavier books, and to be able to do so without feeling that you're somehow being looked down upon for you reading tastes. Goodness knows I get enough of that by reading m/m romance at all!
Chris:
ReplyDeleteTolerance and respect for differences. I wish there was more of both...
Oh yes, definitely.
Hermia: I've read both of those books and really liked them, Concubine especially, which managed to combine the theme of slavery and romance very realistically. Plus the hero had purple scales, so how could you not love it? :)
Kris: That's exactly why I like them. The books make me think in a way that the fluffier romances don't. This can be a double edged sword in a way because I can be left unsatisfied if an author of a dark romance hasn't given me enough in terms of character motivation, whereas with a lighter romance I'm not quite so hard on the characters :).
ReplyDeleteKZ: I have a couple of Kensington books on my TBR pile.
I have to admit that I'm a bit of a wuss for needing my happy ending which is why I don't read much in terms of gay lit. I can endure all sorts of hardship on behalf of a character or a romantic relationship as long as I know that in the end they are together and facing a happier future.
Have you read The Brothers Bishop, Jen? It's an incredible work
I've had this recommended to me before and I haven't read it because I know it doesn't end well. Maybe I should just gird my loins and read it, knowing that I shall be sad at the end.
Ingrid: Ha! Maybe I've set a challenge here and some author will attempt to put all that in their books. Actually Nikolai by Angelia Sparrow comes very close to having all those themes in the book!
ReplyDeleteI think you're right in saying that the books have to be written well with characters that are sympathetic despite being flawed. Just writing a sensationalist book isn't enough, there has to be more than just rape and torture, the reader has to have a heart for your hero. It's a tough balance to achieve.
I like the edgy stuff. Bring it on
Yeah, sister!
Cornelia: Sorry I missed your comment! This is why I wish you could reply to individual comments like you can in WP. *sigh*
ReplyDeleteThere's millions of people who read murder stories, and thriller is one of the most popular genres ever. Should I infer that we are all secretly twisted psychos just waiting to stack old ladies in our basement?
Exactly! I read a lot of horror books when I was in my late teens/early twenties. That did not mean that I wanted to kidnap unsuspecting authors, lock them in my bedroom, mutilate them and force them to write just for me. Nor did I want to hang around fun-fairs and murder the local teenage population.
"I've had this recommended to me before and I haven't read it because I know it doesn't end well."
ReplyDeleteIt actually ends on an oddly triumphant note, but not a traditionally triumphant one. Truly, it's one of the most gripping reads I've come upon in years. (See, I like psycho-emotional grittiness, not the bloodsport kind.)
I've tried but I find I can't enjoy stories containing extremes of sexual violence where they are carried out by the heroes. I've seen this on many occasions, and I have beta-read a few back in my fan fic days, and I've found that once the hero has committed the rape, or whatever, I can't envision him as anything but loathsome. I don't read horror or the grittier modern crime novels either because I find the detailed descriptions of violence too sickening. This is due to my own personal baggage, not due to any fault of the author. I can understand other readers being transported/elated/aroused by it, but it's an intellectual understanding - much as I can understand people who enjoy eating squid cooked in its own ink while really not wanting to try it myself. I think it perfectly possible to admire an author's technique and wish them well without enjoying what they write.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I've read stories that were just so well constructed that I continued to read even though the subject matter made me shudder. I guess there are exceptions to every rule.
KZ: Hmm, I shall seriously consider adding it to my wishlist then. I know other people have said the same as you and have recommended it to me.
ReplyDeleteElin: I completely understand why these kinds of books and themes are not to everyone's taste and respect that just because I like them, then that doesn't mean that everyone will.
I think it perfectly possible to admire an author's technique and wish them well without enjoying what they write.
That's very true. I have to admit that there have been times when I've read dark fantasy and not really liked what I've been reading because it pushed buttons that made me feel very uncomfortable but I can still appreciate the talent of the author and their ability to elicit such a response in me.
My reaction to that list is oh hell yes :-) I love darker stories and am always on the lookout for them. Do you have a fave list you could share?
ReplyDeleteHi Bookwyrm
ReplyDeleteHmmm... I have a number of m/m dark romance books that I've really enjoyed:
The Tales of Aramanth books by Thom Lane
Dark Designs by Luisa Prieto
Scorpion by Aleksandr Voinov
Most of Rachel Haimowitz's books
Catalyst by SL Armstrong & K Piet
Wings by JC Owens
I've probably forgotten something but that's what I've come up with from the top of my head!
Hope it's helpful :).
Thanks, Jenre! I've read Scorpion and loved it but haven't read/heard the others. Can't wait to dive into them :-)
ReplyDeleteGlad to be of help! Hope you like them too :).
ReplyDelete